Curse

Lord Natural · Oct 11, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

A simpler guide would be:

Don't monk stomp Mo/W's if you're a physical (and not running some fruity unblockable build). You're just wasting your adren or combo as he'll just hit a stance and kill your damage. Instead, start with something squishy and dangerous, and force the monk to unload his energy keeping up with you. Most of them have shit for prots and don't know how to use (or don't even have) guardian. Pretty easy to burn them out if they're just power healing and your build doesn't suck.

Charlie775 · Oct 13, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I liked the guide, good stuff!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Lineback front-loaded damage. Lyssa dervs, combo sins, deadly paradox guys. Preventing front-loaded guys from unloading damage will do more than swinging your weapon at softies.

As one of the few masochists who tries to practice mesmer in ra, this small step is the single best way to improve your chances of winning.

Make combo builds fail to do damage.

Stop damage spammers from spamming damage.

Don't do this when the combo is on recharge or the spamming has stopped. Come back to them and make them fail again. Repeat.

Warning: Expect to be raged at.

Charlie

X Icy X [AUST] · Oct 13, 2008, 04:12 AM // 04:12

KILL THE MOST DANGEROUS CHARACTER TO YOUR TEAM FIRST.

....... musst.. kill the monk ..

emuking · Oct 13, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Icy X [AUST]

personally i will line back 70% of an ra match.

Shame on you icy, you are better than that!

Jeydra · Oct 13, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Echo Blackout is bad because it only beats bad players.

It really doesn't matter what else is on the bar, it has echo and blackout, the rest of the bar won't be usable.

Blackout doesn't stop movement, a decent monk will kite the blackout the same as kiting a warrior. A decent, not even a great monk, will still have windows to cast.

If the monk kites the mesmer back enough we'll have a change in targeting priorites. Not from threat, but from opportunity. Kite the mesmer far enough away from their team then a switch to it as a target will result in either a free kill, or forcing their backline into a bad situation which will still probably result in a kill.

Comparing Wail of Doom to Blackout is a terrible comparison.

Really, I should not have to say that echo blackout is bad. I certainly should not have to sit down and explain why it is bad.

You can say Echo Blackout is bad as many times as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a Mesmer with Echo Blackout in the game. You can say Magebane bars don't need Distracting Shot / Savage Shot / Disrupting Shot, but that doesn't change the fact that every now and then you will indeed meet Rangers who bring such bars into RA. You can say Warriors don't need Riposte and Deadly Riposte, but you still meet such Warriors in RA.

So what's your point? If a Mesmer with Echo Blackout is already in the game, are you really going to ignore him? Well you could, and yell at him for being bad after you lose the game, but that's up to you. You say Blackout stops the rest of the bar from being used. True. But it only stops the rest of the bar if you get off a Blackout, which you obviously don't want the Mesmer to do in the first place.

And don't say you can kite Blackout. You can't. The Mesmer with Echo Blackout is going to have a speedboost, and the only speedboost a Monk will have in RA is Dark Escape (30 second cooldown, relatively rare too). Even if the Mesmer has no speedboost he will catch the Monk once he stops to cast. Windows to cast is not enough; 5 seconds of not being able to cast anything can result in kills - just go Monk TA against a WoD Necro. As for kiting the Mesmer far enough from his team, if the Monk runs far behind his team he's leaving his teammates exposed and vulnerable. Not to mention positioning in RA is a lot different from positioning elsewhere.

Mesmers with Echo Blackout need to die. If you still disagree with me, that's alright nonetheless, we agree to disagree.

@Mouse At Large - that's very similar to a bar I run and I pretty much do exactly the same thing, but that advice caters to a specific bar (Water Elementalists). This is, I hope, a general guide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

If you instantly knew all the builds of the other team when they loaded into the match, this guide would be a lot more helpful. Unfortunately, you have no idea if the enemy Sin has Frenzy but no cancel stance, or if that Necro has Shield Bash, or if the Ranger is running 1 or 3 interrupts. You can't tell if those enchantments on the whole team are Life Barrier or Mending. You don't know how many rezzes they might have, or who has them.

In most cases, in the time it takes you to actually be able to use most of the information in this guide, the match would be nearly over. In reality, you either guess correctly and pick the optimal target with extremely limited information, or you guess wrong and waste time and energy (literally) trying to kill a bad target. Or you stood around and did nothing but watch until you saw enough of the enemy skills to actually KNOW who the best target is, in which case the rules presented here could be followed. Guessing the right target can be fairly easy with a little common sense, but it's still just guessing, and trying to put some sort of rule to your guesses based on a couple examples is not only futile, but can backfire very easily by leading you to wrong conclusions.

You can't tell instantly all the builds of the other team, but you can quickly deduce what they are - I usually find that at the end of the match I know the essence of all the builds my opponents are running. Here's how I would deal with the five cases you mentioned:

1. With the Assassin - if he uses Frenzy as his IAS, then hit him (see section on Frenzy). If he has a cancel stance he will have to use it. If he doesn't use it then I conclude he has no cancel stance.
2. With the Necro - To have and use Shield Bash he will have to do two things, be /W and to carry a Shield. Pretty much gives away what his bar is (any /W player carrying a Shield is odds-on to have Disciplined Stance at least).
3. With the Ranger - If the Ranger has Distracting Shot, expect also Savage Shot for a minimum of 2 interrupts. If he has Magebane, expect at least one more interrupt. After that you'll have to see what skills he uses and perhaps get interrupted a few times.
4. With the enchantments - Once you throw out some damage you'll know whether it is Life Barrier. Also you can watch for Blessed Signets, which is a dead giveaway.
5. With the Res Sigs - Expect every player except Monks to carry Res.

I agree with you that there's some element of guessing, but it's still extremely improbable that you guess a wrong target. Elementalists who have Stoneflesh Aura for example reveal themselves once they recast it - and besides you'll notice your attacks deal a lot less damage. Stuff like Defy Pain and Lightning Reflexes you should also notice at once. Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh would stop you from casting in the first place, and be an immediate alarm (not to mention you have to keep refreshing it). You'll see Life Transfers go off, or Critical Defenses, etc. It should not take a long time - probably not more than 10 seconds - before you realize a target is a bad choice for whatever reason.

@X Cytherea X, Charlie775, moko - those are good points. When I get time I'll think of more general guidelines for who to target. I had the good fortune of meeting deluxe in RA some time ago and I've come to realize that there're serious flaws in the guide as it is, which I'll fix eventually.

Byron · Oct 13, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

press cspace12345656565656. it's so merciless, i almost feel bad... almost >:P

Truly an advanced technique. Why am I posting?

X Cytherea X · Oct 13, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

quote the entire technique, its advantage pressing ability and effect on your winning chances are more advanced than the motor skill required to do it implies.

NeHoMaR · Oct 13, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

That guide is too long I think, I can make you a very short one (I have 3 years playing RA) Here it is:

1. Never overextend, all 4 players must be in range (inside circle) but ...

2. Don't ball, area of effect damage, hexes, etc, will seriously make you lose.

3. Kill spirits (yes, don't wait like an idiot, just rush before Ritualist cast spirits, and DON'T let he/she cast a thing)

4. It's recommended to use PvP characters, that way you will have the possibility of perfect armor/weapons, that REALLY matters.

5. The first one to kill is NOT the monk, but mesmers and necromancers, sometimes elemenstalists, even melee players if doing TOO MUCH interrupts and/or damage to your team healer or weak armor player.

6. Never kill yourself. If you are hexed with something with can kill you if you cast or attack, don't. Tell other players you have that hexes on you.

Optional info:

Reasons when it's better to just leave or resign:

- With no healer in your team, your possibilities of success are highly reduced, so normally (not always) you won't get gladiator points.
- Too much healing (2 or more healers) normally fails, you possibly won't get gladiator points.
- Most of the time, is very bad to play in a team with 2 or more players doing the same role (same elite, and so on)
- An incredible bad player (aka Noob) could really make your team fails even with 3 +glad5 in the team; the reason is the small size of the team (4 players)

(If all 4 players don't resign, fight, try to win, and leave at the end, DON'T wait too much or the team will have 3 players in the next arena)

LifesRestorer · Oct 13, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

as much as i regret it, cytherea makes a good point. spawn killing enemies is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing win

1) they have 15% DP
2) they will have a res sig that will be unusable
3) they have no prots

only thing i disagree with is waiting around the corpse. just click on them in the screen when they come up (its obvious, theres a big shining light where they get up), KD them (magehunters, bulls, shock, whatever) and then beat their face in.

scruffy · Oct 15, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

you said if you dont have a monk you should just try to monkstomp...i find a better solution is to let the melee player on your team who is bound to jump on their monk do it, and then while their monk is distracted / wastes prots you spike out their tele-assassin or w/e they have that can be killed easily in a short amount of time

only time i would consider a full on monkstomp is if youre down a man, and even in that situation you can try to split up the enemy team by spreading out really far and pwning noobs in 1v1's then pushing their team off the corpse

Jeydra · Oct 16, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

you said if you dont have a monk you should just try to monkstomp...i find a better solution is to let the melee player on your team who is bound to jump on their monk do it, and then while their monk is distracted / wastes prots you spike out their tele-assassin or w/e they have that can be killed easily in a short amount of time

only time i would consider a full on monkstomp is if youre down a man, and even in that situation you can try to split up the enemy team by spreading out really far and pwning noobs in 1v1's then pushing their team off the corpse

You're right, that's one of the major flaws in the guide at the moment. I intend to fix that sometime - rather lacking in time (and motivation, to be honest) at the moment.

X Cytherea X · Oct 16, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

there is a time to monkstomp, and when your team does not have a monk of its own, that is most likely the time to do it.

spreading damage around makes it easy for the enemy monk to push his team's red bars back up, while your team has no means to do so.
this should only be done if ALL these conditions are satisfied:
1. your team has a source of monk shutdown. (migraine or diversion mes, knockdown spamming physical who can count stances)
2. your team has perfect counters to their offense. (interrupt ranger for hexes/spirits, blindbot for physicals)
3. your team has a source of pure epic spike damage. (combo assassin, augury casterspike)

otherwise, focus fire on the monk or you will die eventually.

DarkNecrid · Oct 16, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

spreading damage around makes it easy for the enemy monk to push his team's red bars back up, while your team has no means to do so.

Yes I know, I especially like the recent update where Monks got infinite energy and they never ever run out of it.

This is the one thing you never seem to ever wrap your mind around (seriously each of the topics you post in devolve into this concept), is that battles are not fights over Health. Yes, health bar full = alive and good, and health bar empty = dead and not good, but that's a very simple minded way to look at it, and a completely newbish thing to do really. Battles are fights over resources. Health is just 1 of the two integral resources in the game, with energy being the far more important one.

No, energy bar = empty does not equal dead, but energy bar = empty on a Monk = everyone else might as well be dead including said Monk (in RA anyways, where the maps are more constricted). Your team mindlessly wailing on the Monk is the most retarded thing you can do a lot of the time. Having someone pressure him is a good idea sure, but spread the damage around with your team. Switch targets on Guardian to make him waste his energy instead of attacking through it and making his energy worth something and wasting your OWN resources. Especially if he uses it on himself. A Monk doesn't have infinite energy. They can't keep going forever, although they sure as hell can if the enemy team is doing something stupid like playing a Health based fight and just trying to "beat down the Monk".

If you don't have a Monk or a Ritualist healer, people are just going to spike you anyways, so doing something dumb like all attacking the Monk 24/7 is something you definitely shouldn't be doing. With some epic shutdown you can eventually out pressure the Monk's energy bar, and cause the entire enemy team to crumble, but mindlessly wailing on him making all of his energy be useful with his Guardians etc, while the rest of his team has free pickings on all of you, is really really retarded. The greatest skill a melee class has, is the almighty TAB key. If you ain't using it, you're doing something wrong.

Jeydra · Oct 16, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

@DarkNecrid -

Your points are very valid, which is why I wrote that when your team has a healer and the other team has one too you want to spread damage as opposed to concentrate it. The big difference comes when your team does not have a healer and your opponents do. Then X Cytherea X makes a good point. Your team does not have a method to push its own red bars up while the other team does, and even though energy is always a target the game is won over red bars, not blue bars (although one will lead to the other - low health Monks usually have low energy, low energy Monks usually have low health).

It's fairly obvious to me that when your team has no Monk and your opponents do, the enemy Monk is a bigger target than normal. The question though is of course, just how big. Almost all RA Monks carry self-defense; Mo/W's are by far the most common profession, with Mo/A's second and Mo/E's or Mo/Me's distant thirds. The latter two combinations, while common elsewhere, is uncommon in RA because you usually can't rely on your teammates to defend you, and you need self-preservation of your own. Obviously if a team starts out with 2 melee characters whacking at a Mo/W the Monk will activate a stance and laugh. Same with Mo/A - he'll Return or Dark Escape and laugh.

You still want to kill the Monk, but you usually can't do it at once. There are a fair amount of subtleties I intend to write into the guide. Sometime. I've been thinking about this section quite a bit and refining it; eventually I might be able to dramatically shorten the guide while giving a better overview here as well.

X Cytherea X · Oct 16, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Yes I know, I especially like the recent update where Monks got infinite energy and they never ever run out of it.

if the monk does not overheal and knows how to swap, it will take a loooong time for him to run out of energy. without your own monk, you will likely be dead by then.

Quote:

health bar full = alive and good, and health bar empty = dead and not good,

true

Quote:

Health is just 1 of the two integral resources in the game, with energy being the far more important one.

false

Quote:

With some epic shutdown you can eventually out pressure the Monk's energy bar, and cause the entire enemy team to crumble

this is only possible if your team has near-perfect counters to all their offense (like a 1-to-1 correspondence) and preferably a reliable source of monk shutdown. read my previous post for the criteria that must be met for this strategy to be feasible. i never said it is wrong, in fact i use it when applicable. im one of the biggest haters of monkstomping around, lol.

but your team makeup must be able to cockblock both their damage and their healing. otherwise your damage will be negated, theirs will come in barely challenged, and your red bars will steadily and inevitably go down... WAY before the point that the monk runs out of energy and their team crumbles.

in the latter case, ganking the monk from all angles (physical, cond/hexual, debuffing) is a better idea. and it can work, you just have to gauge your team's ability to do it. if 2-3 physicals wail on the monk, yes some will eat shield bash but the others' attack skills will connect. maybe one will even have wild strike/blow. the other member can be a backfire/shatter mes or ripench/defiledefense nec.

ive had teams with a monk beat me 4-5 times in a row, despite me trying to mitigate damage and occasionally killing offensive squishies. they simply outlast us, cuz we dont have our own healer. but then finally, i get an all-offensive team that i identify as perfect for monkstomping, and i tell them "ok guys, gank the monk. over and over. dont do anything else." and we win and wreck their streak. that definitely would NOT have been possible if we spread around; they would win again by attrition.

i have a strong suspicion you play linebacking hammer warrior with grasping earth in "balanced ta"(zzzz snore) a lot, which could explain your defensive and "long-term" mindset... xP

erk · Oct 17, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Firstly I am please to see the admins haven't killed this thread yet! I guess with GW winding down with the long delay until GW2, RA is attracting people due to the unpredictable nature of the game outcome "anything different is good" - Groundhog Day.

RA is not quite as random as it's made out to be. When you enter a new game the chances are very high that you will be facing the winners of the previous game. Usually that means they had a healer, and your team doesn't, because the well healed teams don't end up back to the staging area as often for your team to pick up their Monk.

Unlike TA, where teams are often on vent discussing targets, RA teams usually don't know what to attack, C-space rules. The really good players do, the medium experienced players will tend to Monkstomp as it's an unspoken understood objective. If they have a healer and you don't, chances are your team is going to die from something as simple as a poison arrow Ranger. To level the odds you stomp their healer a.s.a.p. Trouble is that after killing their healer once, most teams wander off and C-space again, the healer gets res'd and it's gg. Calling the healer as soon as res'd can help to focus the team again.

Of course if your teams are balanced an both have healers, then Monkstomp is most likely NOT a good objective as already pointed out by others.

bungusmaximus · Oct 17, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Which leaves me to the question why people NEVER tend to take any self-cleanup/heal. It doesn't completely neuter damage output imho. A skill like Natural Healing is very OP in random battles such as AB or RA. Even a warrior with a low energy regen can hold out quite a while. Of course it requires investments in points, but heck, since when do people still run tactics?

of course with a shock bar you will have just that little bit more pressure, but you can't pressure things while you're dead. You're not very likely to insta-kill any decent monk, even if you stomp him, the rest of the opposing team won't just sit and let that happen if they got 2 or more braincells.

When I'm lucky I can even force dumb opponents to split, no matter how good the monk is, they can't heal teammates that are out of range

X Cytherea X · Oct 17, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

you cannot pressure while dead. TRUE
self-healing fails, it only delays the inevitable. TRUE
if you're gonna die, might as well bring an enemy down with you. TRUE
you can prevent your death by killing that which can kill you first. TRUE

you can kill efficiently as a melee class while blind, snared, or have a miss-causing hex. FALSE
self-cleanup can remove things that prevent you from killing, once they get on you. TRUE
an IAS and Shock can remove things that prevent you from killing, once they get on you. FALSE

self-cleanup can save your life if you remove a deepwound to give your monk time to heal you if you have one. OR give you the upper hand against your attacker, so you can kill him first. TRUE
self-cleanup will save your life all the time, and will keep you completely clean 100% of the time. FALSE
sometimes it is enough, sometimes it isnt. but it is better than nothing. but if you happen to get a monk, and there are a fair lot of them, it is possible to stay completely clean 80-90% of the time.

skill slots are limited. TRUE
you need multiple skill slots to devote to killing things. TRUE
it is possible to have an IMS, IAS, hex cleanup, condition cleanup, self-heal, knockdown, interrupt, snare, resurrection signet, and still have slots for killing skills. FALSE
if you are a melee player, your primary objective should be killing things. TRUE

IN CONCLUSION: a skillbar with epic damage and self-cleanup to greatly increase the likelihood that your epic damage will go through is an optimal skillbar to bring. TRUE

bungusmaximus · Oct 17, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Why are monks so highly thought of? most RA monks are so atrocious that I'd rather have an extra damage dealer instead.

Seeing you play sin I can understand your reasoning, not much room for self heal when you NEED high spec in critical strikes.

"self-healing fails, it only delays the inevitable."
lol, I had many matches that proved otherwise, you just got to adjust your tactics. A self heal makes me a good split character, my tactic would be to force the opponent to split as well to gain an advantage and kill him.

Delaying the inevitable isn't always bad, when I know I'm going to die I might as well buy some valuable time. When I'm lucky my teammates score a kill in the meantime.

erk · Oct 17, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Why are monks so highly thought of? most RA monks are so atrocious that I'd rather have an extra damage dealer instead.

For ages on other forums it's been promoted that the best way to farm faction in RA is to Monk, that has created and oversupply of bad Monks. Most don't understand observation and pre-prot let alone movement. They think Mo/W with disciplined stance is all they need, so they just stand still and get pounded to death, hence the viability of Monkstomp.

There is an excellent thread in the TA forums from last year, on becoming a better monk:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10104060